MacJams.com - Song: OPEN SEASON (In God's Name) by J.A.Stewart

OPEN SEASON (In God's Name)
by J.A.Stewart

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Guest views: 963
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Song comments: 74
Tokens: 0
Plays: 167
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Downloads: 27
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Submitted on: Jul 14, 2008 - 04:28:41 PM
Last Updated: Jul 14 2008 - 04:28:41 PM

Keywords god (192), protest (21), killing (8), war (118), religion (28)

Description Of all the things that make absolutely no sense in this world, people killing other people as part of *God's Will* leads the pack. End of sermon.

This is my first pass at a very complicated mix with an initial stab at the vocal. But because I feel so strongly about the subject matter, I decided to post this early version.

Lyrics Open Season (In God’s Name)
Music & Lyrics © 2008
By J.A. Stewart
– ALL RIGHTS RESERVED –

Well, some folks pray to Jesus and swear that he’s The Lord
Some give praise to Allah, then wage their “holy” wars

Now, no one’s sure who god is – or if and when he came
But do you really think he’d want us killing in his name? ‘cause there

CHORUS #1:
Ain’t no reason... there ain’t no rhyme
For Open Season – on all Mankind

There’s no god who would make us, his daughters and his sons
For one to kill the other, with explosives or with guns

He’d surely need no help from us, to carry out His will
Except to honor all he’d made and never ever kill, ‘cause there

CHORUS #2:
Ain’t no reason... no, there’s just shame
Stop! this killing – in your god’s name..............

Preaching fire & brimstone, there are those who claim they’re blessed
But anyone teaching Hate & Death is one god would detest

No, they don’t care who god is, they just use him for their gain
For money, power and control, they twist what should be plain... that there

CHORUS #1

No matter if you’re Christian, Hindu, Muslim or a Jew
No god would want you using him, the way so many do

As fodder for their selfish quest, to rouse some faithful souls
To do their shameful dirty work, to gain their earthly goals, ‘cause there

CHORUS #2

Hardware MOTU 828mkII

Software: LogicPro 8

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futzpucker said 177 days ago

Very, very well done
Joe, I think you've got it here as far as the mix goes. Sounds complex but clear - I hear every instrument and all fx, placed expertly. I especially like the very effective clav part, by the way.

The urgency is in the listener's face, but is not overbearing. The message is obvious, but will always need continual restatement until it is thoroughly heard, understood at the deepest levels, and absorbed completely.

Excellent, Joe. Great delivery of old truth that has yet to manifest. Thanks for this.

J.A.Stewart said 177 days ago

Re: Very well done...
Thanks, Patrick... for your keen ears and especially for the props on the clav part. The tune started out purely as an acoustic guitar piece, but the more I listened to the guitar part, the more it reminded me of a clavinet. And so, the clav part was born.

As far as the message, I did the best I could to make it honest, simple and sensible. Hopefully, it will be received that way. ;)

--- Joe

	Feter said 177 days ago
	OPEN SEASON great rockin protest song ...nice singing my friend I would imagen this with wild guitars .good arrangment powerful lyrics indeed ...Kudos ...Thnx for sharin !!!

	MarkHolbrook said 177 days ago
	I think this is outstanding! The subject is killer to say the least and the mix is amazing! Superb in every aspect. This one will require many more listens! Thanks so much for sharing the early one!

	gail60 said 177 days ago
	Wonderful post!! Joe I love this song! I agreed with and enjoyed your lyrics very much. You sang well and just did a great job throughout. Very good song!! Thanks Joe.

	Karmatoburn said 177 days ago
	love it Buckingham'ish. The mix is stellar. Very clear. The progression rocks, imho, and the sweet nuanced production nuggets, like the voices near the end. That seals it for me. I could hear a hornby's like piano somewhere :-0....

J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago

Re: love it...
Hmmm... *Buckinham'ish*. The palace, the Chicago fountain, or the 60s rock group? ;) Funny, because when I think of the Buckinghams I always think of the 60s organ and the horn arrangements prevalent in their hits. As it happens, I toyed with the idea of horns in this tune, but this mix is a considerable challenge already.

Thanks for your feedback, ktb. I'm pleased you liked the song. ;)

--- Joe

	Karmatoburn said 176 days ago
	ooops my bad, Lindsey Buckingham from Fleetwood mac. Phenomenal guitarist and writer/singer. :-)

	J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago
	Re: Oops... Oh, THAT Buckingham. Yes, I do believe I've heard of him. LOL. Thanks, ktb. I'm flattered by the suggestion. ;) --- Joe

sloparts said 177 days ago

Love the Lyrics Joe
Says what I've been saying for years, and says it very well.

As for the music, it's powerful to be sure and since you said it's your first pass I offer these suggestions.

It almost sounds too busy, but I think that's because the levels needs adjusting. You vocal needs to come up a few db so the message takes a more prominent place in the mix. Not a lot mind you, just a notch or two.

Some harmony on the choruses might give them even more power for the message.

These are just my thoughts after listening to it a few times, so please don't take offense my friend. They are meant as observations from a deaf guy.

Other than that, this sound great Joe. It's a wonderful song with the right message and I love it. Can't wait to hear the final version.

Take care and thanks for sharing this one.

Ed

J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago

Re: Love the Lyrics...
Hey, Ed... you're about as deaf as you are slow, my friend. Your experienced ears are right on target.

When I was first ad-libbing to the music to get started on the lyrics, I recorded a vocal placemat track that sounded a lot like Jim Morrison and that *popped* right out in front. I'll be working to recreate that sound for the CD version because you're right --- the message must be more prominent.

Right again on the harmony parts. I muted them for this version. I got lazy and didn't want to spend any more time tweaking this mix. ;)

Thanks for lending your *deaf* ears and honest observations, my friend. You ain't fooling me with that *aw, shucks* routine. LOL

--- Joe

sloparts said 175 days ago

I think they call that
tired ears, Joe. After a while, I find I have to do one of two things on a mix. Post it like it is and take my chances, or walk away and come back a day or two later. And sometimes I should really do that a few times because I start to lose perspective on the mix after too many tries.

But since patience was never one of my best virtues, often times I choose the wrong option there. And it seems there's alway someone who really listens and calls me on it. Thank God for that, or nothing I do would sound worth a darn.

I've got you fav'd so I'll know when you repost it. Can't wait to hear the final on this, it's a great song.

Be cool

Ed

dajama said 177 days ago

Excellent song
The lyrics are smart, moving and thought-provoking. Your voice sounds terrific here, expressing the words with feeling. I love the guitars here, lovely sounds and nice playing, and the percussion is excellent. The only nit I'd pick with the mix is the bass, which sounds clear but seems (to my wooden ears, and in my headphones) to lack some presence. A very impressive song, and a wonderful sound. Very nicely done. Peace.

Jim Bouchard said 177 days ago

excellent!
What would Ik say? I think he would like this one... The one thing that I think that could be developed is a bit more of a dynamic arrangement. It gets going and it sort of stays on the same level throughout the whole song. All the same it's excellent, and obviously very professionally recorded and mixed. And it's a great set of lyrics putting across an important message. A bit dense, soundwise, and maybe dropping some things out would give it more air, but that's sort of a vague suggestion. The vocal could come up and it does sound like there's some chorus or perhaps that Ensemble effect of Logic being used a bit pervasively, but that's just a guess. The chorus-y sound makes it a bit fat sounding and though it smooths out some harshness, it sounds sandy to me. Now I'm just guessing and being vaguely poetic, but maybe in some roundabout way you might get some suggestion about how to handle the mix, since according to your description this is an early attempt. It's still quite good and could work very well as it is, but it's sounding like you are looking for suggestions, which I really appreciate.

J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago

Re: excellent!...
Ooo! Lots of bouncing boobies. NOW we're talking! LOL

Thanks, Jim. You are indeed right... on all counts. I AM really looking for helpful feedback and you have immediately focused on the aspects that concern me the most --- the lack of dynamics in the arrangement and the density of the mix. This is definitely one of those cases where the art of *subtraction* will play a large part in the final outcome of this production. You wouldn't believe how many tracks were already muted for THIS mix. ;)

As I've mentioned in earlier responses, yes, the vocal will be more prominent in the final. That *chorus-y* sound was just a temporary effort to beef up the vocal a bit. I doubled the vocal track and laid Logic's *Spreader* plug-in on the second track to create a bit of a difference in the doubling. I think it probably ended up detuning the second track at times, creating a bit of a phase shift. With some tweaking, that effect may still have some merit... if not in this song, perhaps in another. We'll see.

But thank you for your kind remarks and for your excellent observations on the arrangement and the mix, Jim They will certainly be in mind as I work on the final version. ;)

--- Joe

Moviz said 177 days ago

What a great song
and answer to a certain post (maybe you could just send him the lyrics since he's not allowed to listen to music). Anyway, love this for the sound (love the way the percussion just rolled out of the opening explosions) Lyrics are spot on, along with all the FX and instruments etc. and the melody has that 'going forward', determined sound. Vocals as always spot on. I just love this Joe, great stuff and a great 'message'. Regards M

	massa said 177 days ago
	Great song! Liked everything of it. Right from the start! The message is also brilliant and well said. " As fodder for their selfish quest, to rouse some faithful souls. To do their shameful dirty work, to gain their earthly goals," Brilliant! Couldn't agree more. Well done! Great song!

	Skean said 177 days ago
	Wow I love what I hear you sure Rock man:) what a great lyrics as music fits like you know...hehehe... Thanks for sharing download. Take care -- Kenta

	davisamerica said 176 days ago
	Good Grief Charlie Brown.. :- ] Joe this is really good. I envy the mix so. topical and smart lyrics .. and a driven tune. Man .....

	lavalamp said 176 days ago
	Dig it Great production musically. I think it would be cool with a female voice, too. Or strictly female. It would give it a special something. I like your delivery, btw. Really cool song, my man. Groovy and a bit preachy. Dave

	TobinMueller said 175 days ago
	Still life Reminds me of early Stills. Nice. Shalom...

Pete_NB said 175 days ago

Holy!
Very solid and complex. Great message of course but the song stands on it's own musical merits.

As I was listening to it, I didn't find the mix to heavy or dense at first. What I found myself wanting to hear was some lightening up after "...name" at the end of the second chorus. The first couple of bars maintain the same richness as the beginning but without the vocals seemed somewhat muddier. Almost like it needs the vocal "mustard" to cut through.

I'm no expert in that realm, so take my advice with a grain of salt. This is a great track!

Roca_Atomica said 175 days ago

Open season....
Joe, in response to your "bombing run" post, I gave this song another listen. I heard it already over at MacIdol. This is a top-notch production, with a surprising and effective use of effects --- I especially like the (praying?) voices in the background in the intro. The guitar riff is cool and clear. Might like to hear some harmonized vocals on the last or last couple of choruses. The prominent high-hat that comes in at about 2:15 sounds great, but promises a dynamic build that doesn't come. How would it sound to let the high-hat run after it's introduced, then bring in a definite snare on the last verse? The song has a good groove, and it would really make the song swing if a snare was added near the end. The angry lyrics are perfect. On philosophical grounds, I couldn't agree more, although that's mostly irrelevant.
Really excellent.

	thoddi said 175 days ago
	good message Well put! Super duper performance. You're pretty good at this stuff my friend:) The powerful intro grabbed me and once the hook-line started I'm nodding to the groove. The mood you've created suits the theme well. Very pro production. Brilliant!

Peter Greenstone said 175 days ago

Dig it
I really like the funky melodic patterns and the way you used the sound effects. Overall, a really good sound and rhythm to it. Like others have mentioned I think it needs to be more dynamic between verse and chorus and from beginning to end. You could give it a brief suspenseful break just before the chorus which could come in with more intensity than the verse. Harmony during the chorus would probably sound good, maybe just octaves apart.

In later choruses I'd kick the vocals up an octave and belt it out with commitment, building the music as well, enough to go with the more intense vocals. Then on the verse right after strip it all down. Layer all those funky parts back in there as it goes.

I think that would enhance the power of the great message you have in there. Keep em' on their toes.

VicDiesel said 175 days ago

Almost there
This is a pretty decent mix. There's a lot happening, and it's all more or less audible. The main thing I'm missing is the bass. It's there, but I can't really hear what it's doing. Partly that's because its part is not convincing: just a note here, and note there without much rhyme or reason. I think with a song this busy the bass part should be really simple. Just one loud *thunk* at the start of every other measure, or something like that. It doesn't need to cover all those rhythmical accents that the other instruments also cover. Maybe you can EQ away some lows from the other instruments to make more space for the bass?

Other than that I like this. It has drive and it sounds good.

Oh, after a while the verse gets a bit repetitive: 4 identical lines, and then every verse the same as the last, and the chorus is not a major departure from it. Find a way to have line 3 go up in melody a bit?

	digitalnirvana9 said 175 days ago
	Radio Ready Too bad they won't touch it with a 10 ft pole.....Excellent mixing and production with a searing message....kinda reminds me of the Bill Moyers piece on how the Christian Right put Bush into power.....Congratulations on taking on a hard topic with style and grace....Bravo! Peace, Norman

	guitapick said 175 days ago
	Too many reasons... ...to fight... Propaganda to further the ends of the few...sets the wheels in motion time and time again... Great tune, Joe. Tip o' the hat to ya, brotha...

said 174 days ago

Hey J.A.
Except for a few minor tech glitches, such as those mentioned by the good Mr. Diesel, this song is a real gem.

It's message is vital, and if I voted I would give it mostly 9's.

I would remind everyone of two things though:

1) Anyone and everyone who commits murder does it in the name of what they believe in, be it "God," greed, "justice & equality," or what have you.

2) In the 20th century, proportionately more people were murdered world-wide in the name of SECULARIST (specifically LEFTIST) political ideals---and this in a span of 80 years---than in all the religious wars in recorded history. The RIGHT, both religious and secular, has it's evils, but just can't seem to keep up!

It's important to ever remind crusading bigots like Bill Moyers and those MJers who adore him of these simple facts.

As I have made clear over and over again, I am opposed to the Right. After all, it's only the Left in slo-mo.

It was the Left, however, that brought us the 5 greatest mass-murders in human history:

Mao
Pol Pot
Stalin
Hitler (National SOCIALIST)
Lenin

---all of them committed mass-murder in the name of purely SECULARIST/LEFTIST ideals.

J.A., sorry to use your wonderful tune as a springboard like this; but unbalanced, one-sided, fanatical comments like that left by digitalnirvana9 must be counterbalanced with fact...even if---as per usual---they fall, for the most part, on the stone-deal ears of the brainwashed.

Take care J.A....and keep em coming!

Be well!

PS: I hope the Admins get the anti-bomb code fixed soon. What kind of person bombs an anti-hate song? GEEZ!

	J.A.Stewart said 174 days ago
	Re: Hey... Hey, Micheal... I don't mind discussions. Discussions don't kill people... people kill people. ;) Thanks for listening... and for the props. --- Joe

	said 171 days ago
	I found it! (Heh-heh...) Yesterday in my daily reading I came across this great quote from Blaise Pascal re violence in the name of religion. It would make a good intro to your fine tune. "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." (Pensee #895) Rock on my friend!

	springclock said 174 days ago
	thunder that beginning really grabs you.... this is very well done.... awesome production and fantastic lyrics..... a topic everyone needs to consider.... you deliver these lyrics like a modern day prophet....excellent post bro....thanks so much for sharing this gem with all the other kids here at MJ.... peace....Ian

ageofthedeathtree said 173 days ago

wow...
first off i'd like to say this song is truly phenomenal! i mean this in every way...the writing, the performance, and the production. you nailed it man! i absolutely love, and highly agree with your lyrics. it's sad...if only people would listen...

secondly, i don't understand why someone would give you bad ratings on this tune. even if they didn't agree with your lyrics, this song is superbly executed and produced. i say you did some majorly fine work here, and i for one am loving it. thank you for sharing your song!

sincerely,
age

paul f. page said 173 days ago

We need...
...more songs like this, Joe, with powerful messages that espouse peace rather than killing. I am so glad you posted this... You have such a complex rhythm going on here and it is so very compelling. I do like your vocals very much, esp. the harmony sections. My one suggestion would be to BRING UP the vocal a tad so that it is a little easier to hear and understand. I enjoyed this very much.
Peace.
Paul

guygrooves said 173 days ago

Hey Joe..
This is my first comment since "the thread" and I would love to suggest something to make this song stronger, but I am nowhere nearly qualified to do so. If I could have my songs sound as good as this "jam", as you put it, I would be ecstatic to say the least. I am very glad I found you through the MJ GOOC. Just listening to how you create these wonderful pieces improves my ability to mix and record. Artists like you are invaluable to this site. Ok enough with the sunshine ha ha. I really do think this is one of the finest songs I have heard in a long time. I agree with the message whole heartedly and thought the vocal had a Robbie Robertson quality to it. The melody was beautiful and I especially liked the acoustic guitar. I think when it's finished and fully produced I would most certainly buy the album it was on. The download will be what I use to tide me over. I want you to know I am one of those who rarely buys other artists music. I would buy this though. It is a terrific song and production as it sits now.

J.A.Stewart said 172 days ago

Re: Hey Joe...
I'm very flattered by your remarks, Guy. Thank you. You ARE qualified to suggest anything you think might improve the song... you have a set of ears, don't you? ;)

As I mentioned in chikoppi's "Critique of critiques" forum post, I believe developing critical listening skills begins with listening to the work of others and will eventually make it much easier to apply to your own work. From the sound of it, you've already begun to realize that fact. Subjectivity is the hurdle we all face when attempting to produce our own work. The pure joy of creation can often blind us to our creation's flaws. Critical listening is a discipline that helps one focus on the musical --- rather than the emotional --- connection we have with our work.

This song WILL be on my "CRAZY WORLD" CD. I'll put you down for 10,000 copies, okay? ;)

--- Joe

	guygrooves said 172 days ago
	Ha ha ha 10,000???? uhhhhh uhhhhhhh Can I pay you Tuesday the first week in 2058? Thanks for the encouragement Joe, your a class act.

said 173 days ago

J.A.....
Great (sunshine?) intro, Hollywood! Grabs me immediately.... vocal of yours is deep and wide... your best? I am really engrossed in this track as I listen... Gosh.... sooo good (sunshine?). I love the end of the chorus that goes into the major 7th(?)... that is fine... so fine (Chiffons)... ;)

A totally understandable, and maybe even needed, lament and desire for an end to all the crap of religiosity... which might sound strange coming from an orthodox christian. But, man fails not only in the secular, but in the religious (sometimes royally). God help us!!

You got my deep bows on this one, dude.

Jack

	caroline said 173 days ago
	i listened to this when you first posted and... now i got back to comment :) - ouch - but i mean that in a good way - i sooo admire how you put all these sounds together - i listened with headphones this time - and it kept my ears occupied throughout - thank you for sharing xoxox

	HipHopMoses said 170 days ago
	Well done I think I fall into the Caroline group. I listen earlier but failed to comment, lately I've been trying to do to many things at one time. Good writing the clav sounds familiar to me, it seems as you have a lot going on here :) maybe staggering some of the instruments will clear more space for the vocals. That's if you're looking to clear some. Moses

	rsorensen said 169 days ago
	open season wow this is excellent in every way. heavy subject matter and you handled it perfectly. you really got my attention with those drums at the beginning and held it all the way through. Great vocal delivery. Outstanding!

	falzaabi said 165 days ago
	hey this is so professional song , much enjoyed

	Ibstrat said 162 days ago
	Being not a very religious person I identified with the lyrics right away.I never could figure out why God needs US to spread his message if he is all powerful. And why does he allow millions to grow up learning the "wrong" religion so they can forever burn in hell? I could go on... Anyway, I really enjoyed this song excellent all around.

	E-Frame Wrecker said 151 days ago
	I like this song I listened to it a while back. Probably noticed when it was high up on the MJ "charts" . I really like the intro. Its very dramatic with the lightning. The main riff on the Clav sounds like a guitar. Thats a great riff. The release is nice and has a nice progression. Great song here. Really nice work with the percussion in the background.

	said 146 days ago
	"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth..." it says somewhere in The Book..., albeit some of the characters in it even did take vengeance in His name - seems a bit of a conflict.... Cool song . - Harold

	J.A.Stewart said 177 days ago
	Re: OPEN SEASON... Wild guitars were considered, Feter, but I decided to keep it acoustic and kind of tribal. Thank you for listening and for your comments. Be well, my friend. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 177 days ago
	I think this is... Thank YOU for listening and for your comments. I'm glad you like it. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 177 days ago
	Re: Wonderful post... Thank you for the props, Gail. I sincerely appreciate your listening and commenting. Always a pleasure. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago
	Re: What a great... Yeh, a crack of thunder right out of the gate, Maurice. I wanted to set the tone early and get the gravity of the message in motion. Thank you kindly for your comments. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago
	Re: Great song!... Thanks, Massa. I did spend a lot of time nit-picking the lyrics to make them simple and honest. I appreciate your comments and I'm glad you like the song. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago
	Re: Wow... Thanks for giving it a listen Kenta. I am pleased you liked it. Rock On! ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago
	Re: Good Grief... Thanks for your kind comments, da. I'm pleased you liked my song. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 176 days ago
	Re: Dig it... Thanks, Dave. I'm glad you dug it. I'll give Tina Turner a call and see if she's available. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 175 days ago
	Re: Still life... Shalom, Tobin. For what it's worth... I did a lot of Stills and his buddies tunes back in my cover band days. Perhaps I absorbed some of that. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 175 days ago
	Re: Holy!... Thank you, Pete... for listening and commenting. I won't take your observation lightly. As I work on the final version, I will give a listen with your comments in mind. ;) --- Joe

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	J.A.Stewart said 175 days ago
	Re: good message... Thank you, Thor. I know from listening to your songs that you are pretty good at this stuff yourself, so I appreciate your lending your ears to this one. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 174 days ago
	Re: Dig it... Thanks, Peter... for your ears and your suggestions. I will certainly give them a try and see how they work for me. The harmony parts already exist, but were muted for this mix. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 174 days ago
	Re: Too many reasons... Thanks for the hat-tip, Bob. Yes, stubborn devotion to dogmatism provides an all-too-convenient Hot Button for those seeking and/or wielding power. We make it all too easy for them. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 174 days ago
	Re: thunder... Thank you, Ian. As one who regularly does some fine production work yourself, I take your comments as a real compliment. Thanks for listening and for the props. ;) --- Joe

	springclock said 173 days ago
	well it's def one of the more moving and thought provoking pieces here at MJ

	J.A.Stewart said 173 days ago
	Re: wow... Thanks for all the superlatives, age, but the performance and production still have a ways to go before I'll be satisfied with it. Why the bombs? Blind faith and... deaf ears... seem to share a common link. But some may listen --- and hear --- and think. That is the best we can hope for. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 172 days ago
	Re: I listened... Well, Dear Caroline... the fact that you FINALLY got back to me makes me feel better and all ... pink and fluffy now. ;) I'm glad I could tickle your ears a little. Now, if I could only figure out how to tickle your fancy a bit... ;) Thank you, my dear. --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 169 days ago
	Re: Well done... Thanks, Moses. Yes, I'll be auditioning various arrangements to bring more order and more dynamics to this song. It grew... and grew... and grew... out of a simple acoustic guitar piece into something a bit more complicated. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 168 days ago
	Re: open season... Thanks for the props, Ridd. You do some great work, yourself. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 164 days ago
	RE: hey... Thank you, falzaabi. I am pleased you enjoyed my song. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 151 days ago
	Re: I like this song... Thank you, E. I'm glad you enjoyed it. As I listened to the acoustic guitar riff, it reminded me of a Clavinet, so I created a complementary part for the clav. They blended very well. The percussion you hear represents about half of what I started with. It got out of hand and decisions had to be made. What survived seems to work pretty well for the song. ;) --- Joe

	J.A.Stewart said 145 days ago
	Re: "Vengeance..." Thanks, Harold. Yes, there's lots of wisdom in ALL those books... but also a lot of contradictions. An all-too-human footprint that is often troublesome. ;) --- Joe