Subject: Bombing Run

Some individuals have apparently declared *open season* on my latest song, OPEN SEASON.

I certainly don't mind criticism in the context of a fair hearing of its compositional, musical and lyrical worth and I thank those who have taken the time to listen, vote and offer constructive reactions.

As Neil's thread clearly illustrates, many are growing increasingly tired of the mechanics of the system here, which enable the mischief of anonymous cowards to influence the visibility of worthy compositions.

I feel strongly enough about my song's message that I will not have it trivialized here and am considering pulling it.

If you would be so kind, please give OPEN SEASON a listen and let me know what YOU think.


Thank you,

Joe

sorry joe ... we need to face a hard time till some
friends of ours understand how offended this thing is !!

I emailed Miguel. Please leave your song up for at least the day to see if ADMIN action is taken.

Even if the old anti-spam code were working, which it isn't, it would take 5 minutes or more for it to work. Sometimes a few hours. Too low scores were almost always caught and erased with the old code.

My second to last Robin Hood song got a 1 across the board. I fielded several bomb complaints a few weeks ago. They come in bunches. Simon accidentally took the code off line over a month ago. Once it sweeps thru, if he enables it, it will erase the offending votes.

I wish the ADMIN were engaged!!

Well Joe... I think the song is amazingly great.

If it's any consolation:

Song writing: 10
Production: 10
Originality: 10
Overall rating in Genre: 9

Not throwing 10's easily here. The song is extremely well written. The production sounds GREAT in my headphones. It is a very original idea/tune/sound.

I went for 9 in Genre simply because easily sounds like a pro radio tune.

I didn't see any trivializing remark. If you're only talking about a couple of low votes: just disable voting. You either get meaningless 10s or you get meaningless 4s or whatever. Just disable it. There's absolutely no point in the votes any more.

Victor.

No, you're right, Vic... there ARE no trivializing remarks. Actually, some very insightful and helpful observations --- which is what I always hope for.

The ratings really mean very little to me, except in terms of the visibility they create for a work on this site. But when the anonymous cowards are enabled the way they are, works can be removed from public view in a hurry. The only recourse, then, is to create a *shout out* here in the forums, which is what I did. ;)


--- Joe

It's almost nostalgic for me to read this thread - reminds me of the good old days back in '05 when we used to rant about the unfair voting system. Some things never change, I guess.

As I recall, I used to leave straight tens, often indicating in the comments with a 10-10-10-10. But I would only leave those on songs that really moved me (although, admittedly, I was easily moved). So, I would either leave 10's, or not vote at all. But I always felt like it was important to leave a comment, something encouraging, or constructive.

Coming back to this site after 2 years away, I was surprised by several things. First, how high the scores are. How did that happen? Did everyone start voting like I used to? 10-10-10-10?

Second, I am surprised by how few people vote, or even listen. The site seems smaller, but I don't think it is. It just seems that way.

Last, and most disturbing, are Tobin's posts about Simon and Miguel abandoning the site. I picture MacJams as some kind of Tadashi Togawa spaceship careening wildly through the Universe with no one at the controls. Admin has checked out. But at least Tobin is still here, prepared to do the honorable thing, and go down with the ship.

It's almost nostalgic for me to read this thread - reminds me of the good old days back in '05 when we used to rant about the unfair voting system. Some things never change, I guess.

As I recall, I used to leave straight tens, often indicating in the comments with a 10-10-10-10. But I would only leave those on songs that really moved me (although, admittedly, I was easily moved). So, I would either leave 10's, or not vote at all. But I always felt like it was important to leave a comment, something encouraging, or constructive.

Coming back to this site after 2 years away, I was surprised by several things. First, how high the scores are. How did that happen? Did everyone start voting like I used to? 10-10-10-10?

Second, I am surprised by how few people vote, or even listen. The site seems smaller, but I don't think it is. It just seems that way.

Last, and most disturbing, are Tobin's posts about Simon and Miguel abandoning the site. I picture MacJams as some kind of Tadashi Togawa spaceship careening wildly through the Universe with no one at the controls. Admin has checked out. But at least Tobin is still here, prepared to do the honorable thing, and go down with the ship.

It's almost nostalgic for me to read this thread - reminds me of the good old days back in '05 when we used to rant about the unfair voting system. Some things never change, I guess.

As I recall, I used to leave straight tens, often indicating in the comments with a 10-10-10-10. But I would only leave those on songs that really moved me (although, admittedly, I was easily moved). So, I would either leave 10's, or not vote at all. But I always felt like it was important to leave a comment, something encouraging, or constructive.

Coming back to this site after 2 years away, I was surprised by several things. First, how high the scores are. How did that happen? Did everyone start voting like I used to? 10-10-10-10?

Second, I am surprised by how few people vote, or even listen. The site seems smaller, but I don't think it is. It just seems that way.

Last, and most disturbing, are Tobin's posts about Simon and Miguel abandoning the site. I picture MacJams as some kind of Tadashi Togawa spaceship careening wildly through the Universe with no one at the controls. Admin has checked out. But at least Tobin is still here, prepared to do the honorable thing, and go down with the ship.

I'm okay. I've got my yellow submarine!

...PS: Tom, does this mean you have come back? Or are you just visiting momentarily...

joe.... broken system ... GREAT tune .... leave it up

Thanks, Tobin.



WHAT??? I didn't even know they were DATING! :mrgreen: ;) Seriously, though... if nothing else, they need to delegate some authority and empower some moderators (as you have suggested before, Tobin).

Still, I'm afraid there is no REAL solution to the *ratings problem* as long as anonymous voting is part of the equation. Where there exists power without accountability, abuse and chaos will result... as it has here.

Ratings equate to *visibility* on this site... the opportunity to get a fair hearing and constructive feedback for your work from accomplished musicians AND average listeners. For those who approach the production of their compositions as a craft --- whether or not they have *commercial* aspirations --- the failings of the current system make this site less and less valid as an outlet for those works. Consequently, their participation will likely continue to wane.

Neil's thread has yielded some possible stop-gap solutions, including the *Critics Circles* option and my own suggestion for a *Pro Picks* window, which would take arbitrary ratings out of the picture and provide an undisturbed one-week showcase for higher-level works.

I believe many of these ideas deserve a fair trial. I sincerely hope they will get it... before MacJams devolves into something far less than we would like it to be. ;)


--- Joe

I'm with Victor on this one. I think the meat and potatoes of critcism/feedback is in the comments section. I understand how the ratings system can push your song in to the public eye more, but for the established artists I don't think that's much of an issue. I have songs in the 8-9 range that have no business in the 3-4 range. It's a heavily lopsided system that can't really be bringing any real purpose any longer. The tune is great and I hope you intend on keeping it up, Joe.

I say this every time this comes up, but I'm really perplexed at who has the time to go through all the material and bomb the votes. There's got to be something more interesting to do. Aren't there any reruns of "Coach" to watch or coin jars to be counted in the Bomber household?

First off, of course, you say ANYTHING and SOMEONE gets offended. It's a real world problem, not limited to the likes of MJ's.

I have no idea of a solution, beyond finding a way to identify offenders and then hunting them down and ...well, you get the picture (cull the herd!). I have had a great deal of fun calling people goat-f"""""s, knowing they dare not show their faces, but I suspect that hasn't helped my ratings (hey, at least I'm not getting unpleasant, anonymous e-mails like some people have reported from time to time).

But mostly, when the ratings thing gets to me, I try to take a deep breath and remember that this is much more a development sight than a breakout one, that there are people here that really have helped me with what I'm trying to do, that actually do want to listen to what I have to offer, and screw the idjit goat-f"""""s.

Cheers, Shaky

are the admins really gone? i swear I saw a post with Simon hooking up with people in England recently. I thought they were just busy on the beta site and figuring out how to actually make some money off this thing (good for them). Thanks for sticking around Tobin.

I wonder...what does 'busy' on the beta site actually mean?

Hasn't the beta site been up (with a huge fanfare prior to its opening - almost like an apple event with a countdown as I remember) since January (or was it before that even)

Does 'busy' actually mean not doing anything at all at the moment with the beta site?

I know Simon is in the UK recently/at the moment, but surely if he and Miguel have been 'busy' working on the beta site since it was made public, it would be much further along in its development than it actually is?

Lets face it, neither Simon or Miguel are currently 'busy' with anything to do with macjams

b

Joe, unfortunately I guess this type of discussion will always have some inevitable negative consequences. I'm hoping that once the discussion dies down there might be some semblance of logic going on in the ratings. Looking at the ratings picks at the moment, I see some very interesting juxtapositions - clearly, logic is not yet in charge :)

Hang in there - OPEN SEASON is a top tune (of course), can't quite follow why the reaction to it (except that some may take offense at the content I suppose).

Lets wait until the dust settles here - I'm really hoping that sanity will reign.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree that some repairs to the current system are very much needed, but I don't see them coming any time soon. So we figure out ways to get around the limitations of the site like Critics Circles and such.

And as bad as the problem is here with anonymous voting, I still think that even with all it's warts, this site is the best of the bunch as far as allowing some truly amazingly talented people to rise like cream to the top and get their music heard and reviewed. And with that they get to learn from their peers because those that have gone before them are more than happy to share whatever knowledge they have with the ones who come after them. That's just the way GOOD People do things, they share knowledge to help the community.

This place is so special, you have no idea just how special it is. It's special because it gives us all examples of the real world. You have the people who are really serious about their music and you have the scum of the earthers here too that only want to tear down anything they see that is worthwhile. The things that they cannot do because they are not willing to put in the time and work to do it themselves, they make a mockery of because they want to bring the ones who shine down to their level and try to spoil everything that is good. The world is full of these kinds of people, if it weren't how could you learn to rise above it to become a better person and a better musician. Even the best wheat comes from within the chaff which grows on the same plant from the same good earth.

But you know what? They can't stop the ones who care form caring unless we let them. They can't take away anything that we don't let them take. away.

I know that when ever I vote on a song that the system has a record of my vote in my database entries. I can tell because whenever I go back to a song I voted on it shows me what I voted. So this is fixable because the records are there and can be used to eliminate anonymous voting. Will it happen soon, I doubt it, but eventually it will be fixed. Maybe thats why Simon and Miguel haven't concerned themselves with the problem because it's already fixed in MJ 2.0. We will find out that when 2.0 is put up in realtime.

I guess my point is that I have other accounts at other sites, and of the lot this is the one with the real community to it. This is the place where we can and do help each other to learn our craft. This is the one where we worry about how our fellow musicians are doing and try to give them encouragement in hard time and scold them when they've been bad.

This it THE MACJAMS FAMILY, and family is what it's all about,

I'm done now, you can go back to playing music. ;-)

Ed

I would give a big cheers to Mr.Boimber who votes
6 for most of the songs tonight with out leaving
commnets .. (6=better than avarrage ) ...like
the one can play chords with rythem ..I dunno
why cant yu feel it people ... !!

so offended by all !!

Feter, I'm with you on the anonymous voting (no matter what the score). I'm trying to vote/comment at the same time so there is no confusion, and I think it would be good if everyone did the same. I never had the intention of creating an "open season" for anonymous voting.

I don't have a problem with 6s though - they're "above average" after all - as long as they are an honest assessment by the person voting. At least people are starting to use the system again I suppose.

Peace,
Neil