Subject: Some thoughts on MJ

I think any suggestions involving code changes should remain separate from changes that involve membership actions. I would not expend energy thinking up code change ideas at this time; instead, file them away for a more appropriate era after MJ2 becomes a reality.

Besides members actually voting honestly, as sloparts and jiguma have decided to do, which is a personal decision I applaud and have always tried to adhere to (regardless of whether or not I leave a comment), the other idea that sounds great is chikoppi's Listening Circle. But we need to do it on our own, voluntarily and without code changes.

I love the Listening Circle idea and would like to be a part of one or more. Not sure how the notification system would work without coding changes. Ideas? I already try and listen to most songs by people I recognize, so not sure if it would change what I do.

Maybe the community would also like the idea of Critics Circles?

Multiple Critics Circles could be organized around expertise level and genre-specific knowledge. Personally, I can imagine being a part of more than one Circle: a Circle for Jazz and another for Prog Rock, for example, and others specifically for Song-writing (content, structure, lyrics, melody - but not production, in nearly any genre), and another for Production (again, in any genre).

How can this become a visible, accessible aspect of Macjams? I would hate to see the Forums flooded with 30 different Critics Circle threads. Also, the appropriate place to give criticism is on the song page.

For now, anyone who wants me to critique their song can drop me a note.

Tobin, I think the original idea of Listening Circles and your expansion of it are full of merit. I'm certainly interested in participating, although, like you I already listen to a lot and usually comment.

Does it have to be visible at first? It's possibly a good idea to see how it goes then maybe report back via the forums. I'm certainly up for some changes in routine at the moment and, as I said, very willing to participate.

I'm guessing that it will be an organic sort of thing - I'm wondering though whether we have the participation numbers at the moment to be too adventurous in thinking multiple circles (although I like the idea).

I agree about code changes - not even worth thinking about at the moment.

Cheers,
Neil

I started a thread so volunteers can list themselves as available for commenting. Hopefully, we can organize many Critics Circles in this way:

Critics Circles

Some thoughts on ratings:

I don't want to be forced to leave a comment before voting. The idea of ratings is a quick, non-verbal way to express reactions. I vote more than any active member, perhaps. If I had to leave a comment every time, I'd vote 85% less than I do now. Required comments would water down useful critiques even more. Also, I don't have a problem with anonymous voting, just with troll-like bombing (which, if Simon would put the old code back online, would be mostly taken care of).

I do enjoy people explaining why they do what they do, but not so much people telling me how to do what I do. Yes, there are guidelines on the pull-down menus - I helped write them - but they are merely guidelines. Everyone is free to make up their own reasons and decide on their own honest ratings number.

I just want people to vote more often. The reasons and rating scales they use would then work themselves out. Rating is hopelessly subjective. It needs to be kept in perspective. I still think ratings here do as well as anywhere else to highlight good songs. (remember Taylor Hicks?) If some people gave every song they like 10s and other people gave songs they like 7s, that evens out - if they vote a lot. It doesn't if they don't.

Participation and friendship are rewarded, and a desire for boosting visibility drives many voters, but so does momentary impulse/emotional reaction. People don't spend much time deciding on a number, and don't need too. Altho many people complain that insiders get the benefit of high ratings, I have long said the Ratings Pick window is the best place for newbies to be found quickly, too.

I have less of a problem regarding the use of 10s than I used to. I doesn't bother me nearly as much as the low vote totals. What I don't like is that good artists may leave or lose enthusiasm after being bombed. That is the worst outcome of the ratings system, in my mind. The anti-bomb code, which worked fairly well, was accidentally taken offline by Simon more than a month ago. It hasn't been fixed. I truly dislike that, since I can do nothing about it and at least two talented new members have been off-put by this troll-like vandalism. Admin has also never agreed with my idea of ratings moderators, since they think code can take care of everything, but I think it would be a good experiment to try. At the very least, there should be a "ratings abuse" link on some sort of customer service page so that members could complain and find recourse. The integrity of the ratings system is less important to me than keeping member-talent active.

As for giving any music here a different ratings treatment, I am personally against a 2-tier ratings scale. Whether it be giving the use of loops a weighted vote or being easier on an amateur, I am against a tiered system - it's not in keeping with my own sense of this site as horizontal, an "everyone equal" space. I never give loop based tracks as high a creative rating as tracks made from the ground up, becuz in my mind it simply isn't as creative, altho I may give them a higher production rating if the loops are well produced. I am never easier on a newbie or harder on a veteran pro. But that's just me. To me, its all about results: emotional impact; production values; content; how does it stack up against what I've heard before; did it surprise/teach me something new.

But, in the end, ratings just are not that valuable. The biggest thing they do on the positive side is provide visibility and personal satisfaction, on the negative they can turn people away from the site.

one personal observation, Tobin?
you rarely comment on works, and while this is your personal choice, and i respect the presonal choices of others, you have said in this post, as well as many others, you are versed in production, perhaps more versed than most, and yet, production comments are few and far between here. even when rough mixes are posted for the purpose of production and content comments, most are not given. perhaps you could comment more constructively, providing production tips, and give some of your insights from this standpoint.
for instance, i have listened to tracks from your cd's, and i love how you get warmth from your piano pieces. how is this achieved? through creative mic placement, or is the warmth put back in in post production/mastering? also, what mastering software do you use, and how do you use it? is it simply an eq/limiting suite? does it merely give you the competitive volume needed for today's market? if so, how is your mix used to make the mastering more affective? tips like these to all macjammers are sorely needed, and i dont see many comments from the "old guard." i for one, would love to hear some of yours and others' tips and techniques. i have made it a personal thing to comment on all of my techniques, how i do things, and never do i try and keep them trade secrets. personally, i feel it is partially what brings people to my music.

Tobin has close to 4600 Jam Comments. Hardly rarely commenting.

Well, I moved in here recently as a second home to that other site, you know the one that begins with i. Over there we have had very similar discussions, the only thing different is the rating only goes to 5.

Anyway, when I first started there three years ago, I only used loops and no vocals. One day I finally got a mic and a fellow artist encouraged me to sing, so I did. I am NOT good but other people seemed to like it and left comments, and some 5's for ratings. In no way did I deserve those 5's, but if I did not get those, along with constructive criticism, I never would have stuck it out. I'm still not going to sell out the Boston Garden, but my tunes seem to be improving thanks to that encouragement.

My humble opinion is that you get out of it what you put in to it. Just like in art school, you hang your illustration, painting, or design on the wall for all to critique, you may agree or disagree with what people have to say, but either way you gain knowledge. It's up to you to use that knowledge or not in your next piece, not anyone else.

One other thing, at iC we can turn off ratings, I think you can choose that option here too when you upload, isn't that right?

Put together your own list. Smartest thing I've read in this forum so far.

ya know Ive been reading thru this and it dawned on me ...maybe just maybe the people who leave comments on my songs realy didnt even listen.. It dont matter I love them all the little clique the 7 or 8 people who actually listen. As far as voting goes I turned off my voting system awhile back. The good news is Harold is back!!!!!!!!!!

Once 24 MJers rated one of my tracks - I really can't imagine this happening now. Also I remember being really excited at getting ratings of 8 much more so than if I get a rating of 10 these days.

Basically I agree with all that Neil has said. I first raised the issue of '10 bombs' a couple of years ago and was berated by one such '10 bomber' because he felt he had a right to give 10s if he wanted to (which he had/has) but also he decided that he'd give 10s if he liked a track and wouldn't vote if he didn't. To my mind that was daft because it meant that voting became no different to 'fanning' a song.

I've always agreed with Tobin that the best way to counter bombs and rating inflation is for more people to rate - so that the rating becomes more representative and has greater meaning for those posting tracks.

Ed has suggested that we need a cultural shift on MJ and he's right (either that or we get some inelegant and potentially draconian coding in its place). But I DO NOT agree with the view that to rate we should first comment because I do not believe that will do away with ratings inflation at all (in fact quite the reverse).

It really is up to MJers to make the most of this site and exercise their critical faculties when commenting and rating a track. There seem to be many people who agree with this proposition so isn't it about time we saw it happen?

KK

My suggestion to rating variations pertaining to royalty free loops verses self created loops or playing actual instruments was not out of disrespect. Please forgive me if anyone is offended. I know that there is a talent to chopping up and re-arranging loops. I somewhat beat the system when I create my own loops and use them for back up on a music idea, and when I say music idea, that's a song idea that is generated from me and not an idea generated from someone else's work. I use parts of royalty free loops on occasion to enhance those ideas but not as the main course of a project. I will usually chop away and make minor changes to drum loops so they fit my progressions. I know that there are some here who only use loops and that's great! I'm humbled by their talent. IMO - loop manipulation is not the actual act or skill of instrument operation and is derived from someone else's work. Some artist are blessed with a beautiful voice and need a bed of music to lay their vocals on. In that case the loops are enhancing the project and the main act is the vocals and the melody that artist has created. Is the use of only royalty free material considered musicianship or is it considered more of a production, a skill in mixing using already created quality material or could it be the ear that masters? Loop arrangement is a fine writing tool, is it the only skill used or did that person actually find a quite room to mic a guitar?

I like the idea, a drop down list informing the listeners what kind of music they are experiencing.

Some of my MJ thoughts.

Right then bro ...!

After giving some thought. I will resume voting on songs. BUT, sometimes it may not be the on the first listen. Because, once in a while I need to listen to a song on a second day to ground my perspective.

And I will try to give some constructive pointers and hope no one takes offense. I realize I have slacken off on that over time.

I have to admit that I lost my spirit to
listen and comment like before ..allthis dicussion
and pinning just got me off !
beside I m havin hard hard time now ...I ll listen
to what ever ... do my 52 cents ..big drama here !!

Wake Up and Beat it
http://www.macjams.com/song/44529

ye wake uuuuup .....

you will never convince me a number can rate
a production that happened cos a heart and passions
gathered togther and produced somnething called music
no matter what !!

if you are someone who s tryin to learn ...LISTEN
and READ what Mjers commenting ...any number wont be
anything ..and its so normal to see why 10's kept
people here ...they need encouragment and full fill there
the feel of gratitude to what they ve done ..what
ever level of musician they are ...all we are humans
and all we are here to learn and share music ...
so dont rate me with numbers but rate me wioth your heart
and tell me words that shows your honety to me ..tell me
you didnt undertsanad my msuic tell me you felt my heart
and my suffer //and my happiness looking for hope ..

numbers I despise ..cos they cheat !!!

so I dont think I ll leave supporting MJers
who they will never been around having 7-8
cos you think this is SO sincer no its not sincere
ever will be sincere ... !!

do a comment and let all be normal and healthy ..!!

STOP VOTING ....LISTEN AND COMMENT ...PLEASE

OK here a A clear example ...I looked at
the list tonigth as I dint voted and see
6.25 and I said why on earth one can rate
a song like this ... I went and listen and
I heard an honest song ...realy ... 6.25
is injustice my freind .
your commnents where honest but the rating
failed that sorry I have to say it !!

http://www.macjams.com/song/44485

no matter what you think abou the song
NEVER forget the human behind it the true
yearning heart to do music sit and give
passions to let something out of this
mean something to the one and the world
called music ... !!

thank you !

I don't entirely grasp what you are trying to say.

Let's say I listen to a song and my honest assessment is that the artist was merely goofing off and not attempting to create anything profound. Not only did the song fail to engage me, but the production was grotesquely sloppy as well.

The next song I listen to absolutely moves me to tears. It is a beautiful rendering of emotion and musicianship in perfect sonic clarity that obviously required many hours of love to produce.

Both of the artists have left the ratings option open on their songs and I assume they both want feedback via the ratings system. How do you recommend I respond?

A 6.25 is "Better than average +*. So says the description.
And the last time I checked, "Better than average" is very positive - possibly even better than average. The only reason why this looks negative and almost outright insulting is because - like has been said so many times in the last few days - the 10s are everywhere.

In Neil's thread he wrote what I've been feeling for a long time so I decided to take the opportunity and start voting again, honestly. This is what i thought of that song and I think I explained my voting very carefully, "This gets an x for this and this reasons".


I understand what you mean and you are right, in a way. But the thing is I'm NOT reviewing the person behind the music. I'm not judging his character or his life in any way. I'm listening to and commenting on this particular work of his, as honestly and nicely as I possibly can. This is a place to upload music and get other people's opinion on it, which is exactly what I did and intend to do for the rest of my MJ days.

The last months I've found myself guilty of pumping sunshine and leaving comments like "Absolutely awesome in every way". Although it's flattering and kinda necessary to get these kinds of comments from time to time, I also think it's necessary to get some criticism.

The best comments I get are the ones telling me what I did wrong and what I should do to improve my flaws. Of course I enjoy being praised and flattered - I'm only human - but the most helpful reviews are the bad ones.

Finally - Feter - I don't want you thinking this is an attack against you in any way, for I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your work.
I just feel this is a place of learning (as well as other things, of course) and if no one tries to help others improve then this place is kind of redundant.