Quote by: jiguma
‘Morning everyone!
I’ve been a member here (and I like to think of myself as being a constructive one) for over 3 years. I like it here because of the community spirit, the constructive comments on my music, and the chance to listen to some excellent songs posted by others.
In all the time I’ve been here, I don’t think I’ve had one rant in the forums – I’m sorry, but that’s about to change. I’ll try to remain calm!
What made this place for me was the support I received from others – not just “great song, you’re a star” kind of support, but useful and often insightful comments on how a song could be improved (always given politely and always welcomed). I started out really badly with my early posts, but with the positive critical comments of a few people I was able to pick up ideas about how to improve my rather pathetic early attempts. Even though people were supportive, they voted according to the quality of my posts, and I was pleased to get even a 7 (“good, solid, skilled”) at the time.
As far as voting went, most people voted, and they voted pretty much in line with the descriptions attached to the votes on the song pages. It was good because when you made improvements in your posts, your votes reflected that improvement, and you felt that you were making some progress. The downside was that the occasional flurry of 1-bombs got everyone’s backs up – some things don’t change! “Fav’s” were for songs that really were favourites, not every song you heard.
As my time here passed, I really appreciated the insightful and helpful comments on my songs – many musicians with far more talent than I suggested ways of improving my recording/performance/songwriting techniques. This has resulted, over time, in my being able to create more acceptable recordings, and developing some confidence in what I do.
For me, the present state of MJ is disappointing for the following reasons:
1. Most people don’t vote. While I understand why this has come about, I think it has created an unhealthy situation where there is little reflection of reality in the ratings picks. It is easy to say “I don’t vote because it is pointless”, but while there is such a lot of (what would Ik have said?) “blowing sunshine” in the voting (rampant 10 bombing being the obvious problem), I feel there is a strong argument for those of us who haven’t voted because of the “voting is meaningless” argument to get back to giving honest votes based on the qualities of the post. I’m as guilty as anyone of using this argument to avoid voting, but plan to return to voting from now on (leaving a comment suggesting ways a song could be improved of course – if warranted). Giving every song you listen to a 10 makes no sense – they are NOT all equal in any rational assessment. Giving a song straight 10s is even more inappropriate as there is always an area of relative weakness. You give yourself nowhere to go if something turns up that really is that good. If you give everything a 10, you may as well stop voting, because your votes are meaningless. In addition, new members get the idea that (like iComp) it is the done thing to give full marks all the time.
2. Comments are rarely constructively critical. Commenting that something is wonderful when it clearly (to anyone with any musical background) isn’t, is not helping anyone. It certainly doesn’t help the MJer who posted it to learn how to get better, and it also discourages others who have worked very hard to produce a quality piece of work.
3. There is a noted reduced participation of some long-term, talented, once active members who are either posting less, visiting less or simply disappearing altogether. Some of these departures have coincided with the relatively recent changes at MJ.
This is not sour grapes on my part – I’m very happy with the level of acceptance for my music here. What concerns me is when people like Peter Greenstone or Tadashi Togawa find themselves off the ratings picks because only 4 people voted and one of them dropped a 1-bomb. At the same time there are posts near the top of the rating picks which are amateurish in comparison (although they are great improvements for the people involved most of the time). This just doesn’t make sense, and just discourages the better artists from participating more here. It also gives others a less than accurate impression of their skills.
Admittedly, it is difficult to vote honestly when a song has received all 10s and you think it’s maybe just a solid 8. I’m not wanting to be disrespectful to any individuals here, and especially don’t want to discourage anyone in particular, but let’s get back to reality a little.
My suggestions for improving the current situation (for anyone vaguely interested) so that the site is once again a vibrant, encouraging and challenging place are:
1. Vote each time you listen to a song, and vote according to what you really think, objectively, about the piece of work posted (not how much you like the person posting ). Use the descriptions attached to the voting numbers on the song page as a guide – is this post really “Exceptional/grand artistry” when you give it a 10?
2. Don’t just vote for songs you like – if you listen, leave a vote.
3. Listen to other people’s music with a critical ear, and make suggestions for improvement based on what you hear and your own experience. There is a wealth of knowledge and talent at MJ that we can all learn from.
4. “Fav” songs that you REALLY like and would want to listen to more than once, not every post you hear.
5. Encourage the more highly skilled MJers (the Tadashis and Peter Gs) by acknowledging their skills in your voting and comments.
6. Use 10s sparingly if at all.
7. You don’t need to “blow sunshine” to be positive.
Thanks for reading this – I hope it made some sense.
Now go back about your business.
Neil
‘Morning everyone!
I’ve been a member here (and I like to think of myself as being a constructive one) for over 3 years. I like it here because of the community spirit, the constructive comments on my music, and the chance to listen to some excellent songs posted by others.
In all the time I’ve been here, I don’t think I’ve had one rant in the forums – I’m sorry, but that’s about to change. I’ll try to remain calm!
What made this place for me was the support I received from others – not just “great song, you’re a star” kind of support, but useful and often insightful comments on how a song could be improved (always given politely and always welcomed). I started out really badly with my early posts, but with the positive critical comments of a few people I was able to pick up ideas about how to improve my rather pathetic early attempts. Even though people were supportive, they voted according to the quality of my posts, and I was pleased to get even a 7 (“good, solid, skilled”) at the time.
As far as voting went, most people voted, and they voted pretty much in line with the descriptions attached to the votes on the song pages. It was good because when you made improvements in your posts, your votes reflected that improvement, and you felt that you were making some progress. The downside was that the occasional flurry of 1-bombs got everyone’s backs up – some things don’t change! “Fav’s” were for songs that really were favourites, not every song you heard.
As my time here passed, I really appreciated the insightful and helpful comments on my songs – many musicians with far more talent than I suggested ways of improving my recording/performance/songwriting techniques. This has resulted, over time, in my being able to create more acceptable recordings, and developing some confidence in what I do.
For me, the present state of MJ is disappointing for the following reasons:
1. Most people don’t vote. While I understand why this has come about, I think it has created an unhealthy situation where there is little reflection of reality in the ratings picks. It is easy to say “I don’t vote because it is pointless”, but while there is such a lot of (what would Ik have said?) “blowing sunshine” in the voting (rampant 10 bombing being the obvious problem), I feel there is a strong argument for those of us who haven’t voted because of the “voting is meaningless” argument to get back to giving honest votes based on the qualities of the post. I’m as guilty as anyone of using this argument to avoid voting, but plan to return to voting from now on (leaving a comment suggesting ways a song could be improved of course – if warranted). Giving every song you listen to a 10 makes no sense – they are NOT all equal in any rational assessment. Giving a song straight 10s is even more inappropriate as there is always an area of relative weakness. You give yourself nowhere to go if something turns up that really is that good. If you give everything a 10, you may as well stop voting, because your votes are meaningless. In addition, new members get the idea that (like iComp) it is the done thing to give full marks all the time.
2. Comments are rarely constructively critical. Commenting that something is wonderful when it clearly (to anyone with any musical background) isn’t, is not helping anyone. It certainly doesn’t help the MJer who posted it to learn how to get better, and it also discourages others who have worked very hard to produce a quality piece of work.
3. There is a noted reduced participation of some long-term, talented, once active members who are either posting less, visiting less or simply disappearing altogether. Some of these departures have coincided with the relatively recent changes at MJ.
This is not sour grapes on my part – I’m very happy with the level of acceptance for my music here. What concerns me is when people like Peter Greenstone or Tadashi Togawa find themselves off the ratings picks because only 4 people voted and one of them dropped a 1-bomb. At the same time there are posts near the top of the rating picks which are amateurish in comparison (although they are great improvements for the people involved most of the time). This just doesn’t make sense, and just discourages the better artists from participating more here. It also gives others a less than accurate impression of their skills.
Admittedly, it is difficult to vote honestly when a song has received all 10s and you think it’s maybe just a solid 8. I’m not wanting to be disrespectful to any individuals here, and especially don’t want to discourage anyone in particular, but let’s get back to reality a little.
My suggestions for improving the current situation (for anyone vaguely interested) so that the site is once again a vibrant, encouraging and challenging place are:
1. Vote each time you listen to a song, and vote according to what you really think, objectively, about the piece of work posted (not how much you like the person posting ). Use the descriptions attached to the voting numbers on the song page as a guide – is this post really “Exceptional/grand artistry” when you give it a 10?
2. Don’t just vote for songs you like – if you listen, leave a vote.
3. Listen to other people’s music with a critical ear, and make suggestions for improvement based on what you hear and your own experience. There is a wealth of knowledge and talent at MJ that we can all learn from.
4. “Fav” songs that you REALLY like and would want to listen to more than once, not every post you hear.
5. Encourage the more highly skilled MJers (the Tadashis and Peter Gs) by acknowledging their skills in your voting and comments.
6. Use 10s sparingly if at all.
7. You don’t need to “blow sunshine” to be positive.
Thanks for reading this – I hope it made some sense.
Now go back about your business.
Neil
Just thought I'd bring it back to Neil's original post, since many people (if they are like me) just skip to the latest post in the thread. I thought that this was a very reasonable post by an eminently reasonable and good-hearted guy.
