Subject: Some thoughts on MJ

‘Morning everyone!

I’ve been a member here (and I like to think of myself as being a constructive one) for over 3 years. I like it here because of the community spirit, the constructive comments on my music, and the chance to listen to some excellent songs posted by others.

In all the time I’ve been here, I don’t think I’ve had one rant in the forums – I’m sorry, but that’s about to change. I’ll try to remain calm!

What made this place for me was the support I received from others – not just “great song, you’re a star” kind of support, but useful and often insightful comments on how a song could be improved (always given politely and always welcomed). I started out really badly with my early posts, but with the positive critical comments of a few people I was able to pick up ideas about how to improve my rather pathetic early attempts. Even though people were supportive, they voted according to the quality of my posts, and I was pleased to get even a 7 (“good, solid, skilled”) at the time.

As far as voting went, most people voted, and they voted pretty much in line with the descriptions attached to the votes on the song pages. It was good because when you made improvements in your posts, your votes reflected that improvement, and you felt that you were making some progress. The downside was that the occasional flurry of 1-bombs got everyone’s backs up – some things don’t change! “Fav’s” were for songs that really were favourites, not every song you heard.

As my time here passed, I really appreciated the insightful and helpful comments on my songs – many musicians with far more talent than I suggested ways of improving my recording/performance/songwriting techniques. This has resulted, over time, in my being able to create more acceptable recordings, and developing some confidence in what I do.

For me, the present state of MJ is disappointing for the following reasons:

1. Most people don’t vote. While I understand why this has come about, I think it has created an unhealthy situation where there is little reflection of reality in the ratings picks. It is easy to say “I don’t vote because it is pointless”, but while there is such a lot of (what would Ik have said?) “blowing sunshine” in the voting (rampant 10 bombing being the obvious problem), I feel there is a strong argument for those of us who haven’t voted because of the “voting is meaningless” argument to get back to giving honest votes based on the qualities of the post. I’m as guilty as anyone of using this argument to avoid voting, but plan to return to voting from now on (leaving a comment suggesting ways a song could be improved of course – if warranted). Giving every song you listen to a 10 makes no sense – they are NOT all equal in any rational assessment. Giving a song straight 10s is even more inappropriate as there is always an area of relative weakness. You give yourself nowhere to go if something turns up that really is that good. If you give everything a 10, you may as well stop voting, because your votes are meaningless. In addition, new members get the idea that (like iComp) it is the done thing to give full marks all the time.

2. Comments are rarely constructively critical. Commenting that something is wonderful when it clearly (to anyone with any musical background) isn’t, is not helping anyone. It certainly doesn’t help the MJer who posted it to learn how to get better, and it also discourages others who have worked very hard to produce a quality piece of work.

3. There is a noted reduced participation of some long-term, talented, once active members who are either posting less, visiting less or simply disappearing altogether. Some of these departures have coincided with the relatively recent changes at MJ.

This is not sour grapes on my part – I’m very happy with the level of acceptance for my music here. What concerns me is when people like Peter Greenstone or Tadashi Togawa find themselves off the ratings picks because only 4 people voted and one of them dropped a 1-bomb. At the same time there are posts near the top of the rating picks which are amateurish in comparison (although they are great improvements for the people involved most of the time). This just doesn’t make sense, and just discourages the better artists from participating more here. It also gives others a less than accurate impression of their skills.

Admittedly, it is difficult to vote honestly when a song has received all 10s and you think it’s maybe just a solid 8. I’m not wanting to be disrespectful to any individuals here, and especially don’t want to discourage anyone in particular, but let’s get back to reality a little.

My suggestions for improving the current situation (for anyone vaguely interested) so that the site is once again a vibrant, encouraging and challenging place are:

1. Vote each time you listen to a song, and vote according to what you really think, objectively, about the piece of work posted (not how much you like the person posting ). Use the descriptions attached to the voting numbers on the song page as a guide – is this post really “Exceptional/grand artistry” when you give it a 10?

2. Don’t just vote for songs you like – if you listen, leave a vote.

3. Listen to other people’s music with a critical ear, and make suggestions for improvement based on what you hear and your own experience. There is a wealth of knowledge and talent at MJ that we can all learn from.

4. “Fav” songs that you REALLY like and would want to listen to more than once, not every post you hear.

5. Encourage the more highly skilled MJers (the Tadashis and Peter Gs) by acknowledging their skills in your voting and comments.

6. Use 10s sparingly if at all.

7. You don’t need to “blow sunshine” to be positive.

Thanks for reading this – I hope it made some sense.

Now go back about your business.

Neil

Very good points (and I've been guilty of a lot too - can't think of a criticism and no longer even *look* at votes). Hope some of this comes back into play.

Neil- I think you've stated clearly what many of us have been thinking. You've made some important points.

Thanks for being the voice of reason.

Adam, you were one of the people who encouraged me early on, and I'm very grateful.
Neil
B)

I couldn't agree more Neil. I started a similar post a while ago (that I couldn't find right now).

The challenge seems to be that if not everyone gets into this style of voting, you end up leaving lower scores than the average voter, and will keep good songs out of the rating picks. In the ideal world we would all go back and vote the way we did a couple of years ago.

I think for this to work, we'll need to change the voting system. And that has been discussed some times:)

Maybe if the votes were attached to the comment, showing who left them there... I don't know...

But I would love to see the voting system work as intended, because it would support the comment better and leave you with a better understanding of what the listener thinks of your music.

Thor

Thor, I'm not sure anything much needs to change except that we should all make an effort to listen widely and vote every time. I know what you mean - I've sometimes come across someone I admire who has posted something with maybe less than their usual care in production. When I look at their ratings, they have say 9.5, and I feel bad if I give it the 8 it deserves.

The real challenge will be to to ensure that enough people vote widely enough and honestly enough to counter the 10-culture, and that they vote on more than just the songs they like..

This isn't really about the voting system per se, it's about making MJ a place with a little more value than it has at the moment.

Cheers,
Neil

I'd love to see these points in bullet form and posted on the MJ front page for all to see. The Macjams 2.0 Beta logo has been hogging that space long enough!

ok !!!!

A very interesting, and well-articulated analysis, Neil, and one that probably will (and should) provoke a lot of thought and discussion. I would say that I'm probably guilty of some 'digital high-fiving' (as someone here once memorably described it) and I do fav a lot.

The really key part of your comments, for me, though, is the point about growing and improving as a result of constructive, critical comment. An excellent point, and really the core of what MacJams is and/or should be.

My music is what it is. It may be getting better, or it may not be; people may like it or they may not. But either way, I think it's safe to say that my ability to get my ideas down 'on tape' has improved vastly over the time I've been here, and most of that is due to people here listening to what I've done and making concrete suggestions. (Neil, you are a great example of this; some of your comments in the past have taught me a lot about mixing, and recording bass, for example. I still can't play bass, but at least it sounds better!) I could point to countless other people who have done the same - suggesting how a song can be improved, and thereby giving me a fresh perspective, or the benefit of their expertise, and encouraging me to up the standard on what I do. I'm grateful to everyone who has done this, and I try, with my limited knowledge and wooden ear, to offer similar levels of constructive criticism to others. It's possible to be critical and kind, I guess is the point.

A thought-provoking and considered post. Jeez, dude, even your rants are nice!

Peace

David

"Digital high fiving" - what a great description.
:)
Neil

I'm down with you Neil. I agree with almost everything you pointed out here. I'm guilty of some of the things you pointed out, too.

I dig your stuff Neil. And I don't think it's bad to say "cool song", "nice vocals", or "great sound" from time to time. It encourages some.

I think, with your stuff, I have been rather complimentary, but I have also mention things like, "I think this would sound great with a female voice" (I think). I hope these are the type of comments you want?

I guess it can be a bit of a love fest here, or a popularity contest. I had that feeling by the 3rd month I was here. Then, I disappeared for three months because that not what I wanted.

Example: Compared to others here, I'm really hard on ledebutant because I think she has real talent and think she could do even better. Another person, I may just give words of encouragement.

On a personal note: Sometimes I post songs for "Advice" (how can I make them better), sometimes for "Support" (should I even keep on making these dumb little songs?), and sometime for "Pure Entertainment" (I hope I can make you smile).

Again Neil, I tend to agree with you. I would LOVE to have a REAL vote rating.
SIMPLE SOLUTION: You can only vote if you comment. Then you can't hide your bomb. I mean if you comment it enables the voting box. No one would know what points you gave.

Love your stuff, Neil. Good post. I'm going to be a bit harder on you. You've got talent.

Dave or Lavalamp (when I want to hide)

Come on, Neil, you call that a RANT?!?

Where's the irrationality? The pettiness? The small-mindedness?

As to your points...they seem like valid ones to me. I don't know what to DO about any of it, but they still seem valid.

The first problem, it seems to me, is that no one has ever, to my mind, come up with an elegant solution to our collected bundle of a ratings system. As a result, the task ends up being to change the MacJams culture rather than the MacJams system. I would love to see that happen, but I don't see a way to do systemically it that doesn't make things worse.

Another hard part is that the ratings system does two things, ideally: it gives an assessment, according to a predetermined rating scale, of a particular person's work on a particular song. It also, at the same time, determines a RELATIVE rating on the Ratings Picks list, thus getting the song 'front page' attention, or not. I have tried at times over the past year, to get back to more 'honest' or 'old school' rating, but I have a hard time, in good conscience, giving an 'honest' rating to you or Mark or Fran or Peter or Lisa or any of a goodly number of MacJammers who I think are doing excellent work, if I know that vote will knock it below what I consider to be less inspiring work from other people.

One of my frustrations is seeing, as you point out, really strong songs being missed while less accomplished works sit with all 10's.

The 'fan' expectation, too, has gotten out of hand, but, again, I don't know what to do about it. Sometimes 'fan' means that one really likes the song that much, and sometimes it 's a form of encouragement...

This whole thing reminds me of the 'loudness wars', whereby everything gets all compressed right at the top, with nowhere to go... or of Nigel Tugnel's famous bit about amps that only go to ten: "Where can you go?..."

Perhaps we now need to make the Ratings go to eleven.

It's a hard thing to do emotionally. I still think of 7's, 8's and 9's as strong votes, but if I gave one to someone right now they might experience it as a 'bomb'.

[As I write this, I note that all of the Rating Picks are above 9, except a single song at 8.29 and another at 4.81....]

So, should we swear an oath, form a merry brother and sisterhood of honest vote givers? I suppose if everyone voted on everything they listen to, and comment a lot, and vote honestly as possible, maybe it would start a MacJams trend of devaluation... then we'd have to keep that going as the MacJams culture, letting new people know how voting and fav'ing 'should' work...

I'd love to see things move in the direction you suggest. It's the getting there that seems difficult...

Ed

I think you've got it Ed. I don't think we can change the system - I think we all have to consider changing the way we interact with it (a bit like growing up really).
Cheers from Oz,
Neil
B)

Dave, I quite like the idea that the rating box comes up after you comment, but the old system is hard to shake, especially with a new version (maybe) coming up soon.
I'm not holding my breath for the system to change, but I think that with some goodwill and positive thinking, we can change the way things work a little.
N

Couldn't agree more. I believe that comments and constructive criticism are the heart of MacJams. Everybody seems to be a little too nice at times. If I want nice I'll ask my parents what they think of my songs. I come to MacJams for honest feedback from like-minded individuals. To me this is not a popularity contest, but a place where we make each other better by sometimes hurting each others feelings (in a nice way of course).

-Adam

Now why couldn't I have put it that succinctly in the first place?!
N

The major problem, from my point of view, with regard to older members leaving or being less involved (aside from the normal conflict with real life activities, etc.), is the almost total lack of involvement by the 2 Administrators: Simon and Miguel. Their daily participation stopped over two years ago. Three years ago they applied themselves to the site like a tag team, but there were still months on end when neither paid attention. You guys have no idea how many times one of them acted, in the past couple years, merely becuz I emailed them, urging them to act - not becuz they were watching and knew something needed doing. Well, now they rarely respond. Simon has not responded to me in all of 2008, not once. Miguel helped me establish the Music Blog but has been nearly AWOL since. They may have their reasons, but I think that is beside the point. The issues of forum spam, the anti-bombing algorithm not working, error screens that pop up after comments are submitted, establishing more moderators, and many more things remain unsettled. But the lack of communication/responsiveness, the non-existent customer service, may be a greater issue.

Yes, the tired, old, buggy, borderline embarrassing code on MJ1 is part of the problem, one of the reasons members leave or participate less. The below-industry-standard interface, lack of visual appeal and flexibility, is another. Trolls and bombers and other destructive member activities might also be an issue, altho that seems to be a part of life on the Net these days. But the main issue, I think, and one of the reasons many talented members are not as involved, is lack of commitment on behalf of the Admin regarding what I might call The Macjams Dream: the hope that this site would become a major player in the self-produced music revolution. The site is not living up to that hope established in 2005 when we all envisioned a new interface. There is a sense of betrayal felt by many of us who spent so much time establishing the site between 2004-6.

I realize this is something we can't do much about. No one can motivate Simon or Miguel. No one can convince them to change their priorities, change the structure of their organization, change their level of involvement, even though I continue to try. I realize Simon wants to dedicate his time to MJ2. But the result has been that for the last 9 months MJ1 has been completely abandoned. Those of us who have been around a while notice this much more acutely than new members that never knew anything different.

I wait for Simon's 3 year old promise of MJ2 to become a reality. I also fear how long tweaks will take after implementation, and how long that version of the site will remain broken or buggy. I also recall Miguel's hopes for making Simig a license-marketing arm of the site, plans now all but abandoned. Becuz I love the promise of this site so much, I continue to give them the benefit if my considerable doubts, however. I continue to believe Simon will, one day, follow through. And I know Miguel is a good, smart guy and may one day regain enthusiasm for a business model that makes sense.

On the other hand...

I am proud of the members who have taken the reigns of site content and built energizing events, hosted challenges and festivals, continued to share their music, and are able to ignore the obvious lack of administrative care and service (as well as ignore the spam and unfixed ratings bombs). I am inspired by how patient most members have been. I realize how this is a community of human beings; and, in some ways, the lack of Admin has brought us closer together.

We can only do what we can do ourselves. I have long endorsed frequent voting, honest comments, collaborations, constructive critiques. Thank you, Neil, for reminding us what makes the site vital.

And thank you, everyone else still here, for participating as much as you do. Members are the centerpiece of this site. There is much to be proud of, to want to protect, to care about...

It's odd, but it's never bothered me much about the "quirkiness" of MJ - but now you come to mention it, it would be nice if everything just worked.
N

You elaborate on some other issues Neil but I feel strongly, as you do, that the main reason you and I come here is for the answer to the core question, "How do we improve as musicians, songwriters, engineers, and mixers." Or put simply, how do we improve our craft of making music.

Other people come here for other reasons that I will not elaborate on but I believe that "how do we improve the craft of music maiking" is the MacJams dream, not some pipe-dream that MacJams would be a "major player in the self-produced music revolution."

I don't feel betrayed by Simon and Miguel but grateful for all they have accomplished, which is a free site that they built while having regular full-time jobs. A site that allows us to freely share our musical creations and get feedback from other people. For all the bitching people do around here about this and that feature not being fixed, move to a site where you pay money and then complain if something is broke. In other words, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I have learned to accept MacJams for what it is, a free site that is great for getting feedback on my songs and skills, and getting inspiration from other members' music.

-Adam

Agree Entirely, Neil.
Points well taken and made

However, I think that "Horse is long out of the Barn."
It existed once, probably gone, Man, gone.

Functionally, an approximation is Comment is Required before Voting is enabled. (to reiterate an oft mentioned protocol revision).

The many and multiple efforts of Tobin Mueller and, of late, the energy of the "styles" challenges, sprung from member's imaginations are vital signs of life to build on.
Maybe, sometime, we'll organize well enough to create a MJ Coop to budget for tech fixes when needed and encourage a more responsible type of participation.

Who knows?
Could happen.

Regards,
-rtc